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We explore what it means to have Aphantasia, how it relates to autism, and how it may overlap with the other senses.
Understanding Aphantasia
Show Notes for Embracing Autism Podcast — Ep. 207
Introduction:
Lia: Join us today as we explore what it means to have aphantasia, how it relates to autism and how it may overlap with the other senses.
Lia: Welcome to Embracing Autism, a podcast for parents of autistic children seeking advice and support while spreading awareness and acceptance of Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Lia: I’m Lia.
Matt: And I’m Matt.
Lia: And each week we will discuss our journey with autism and talk about how to embrace your child’s individuality while providing guidance, tips, resources and sharing our personal stories. This is —
Lia & Matt: Embracing Autism!
Lia: Hello, hello. Welcome back, everyone.
Matt: Here we are, again. Take two.
Lia: Or three or four who knows how many takes it takes us at this point.
Matt: Alright.
Lia: So today we’re going to be talking about aphantasia —
Matt: Aaaay!
Lia: And I don’t think pretty much anyone knows what that is.
Matt: We do.
Lia: We didn’t even know what that was though.
Matt: But we do know we do now.
Lia: So we will guide you on this tour.
Matt: Aphantasia is the word of the day.
Lia: Spell it.
Matt: A…
Lia: No cheating!
Matt: Actually I have it written down, but it’s how I spell it — so it’s wrong.
Lia: Okay, I want to know how do you spell aphantasia?
Matt: Haha No, it’s too bad.
Lia: Okay, we’ll move on, we’ll move on.
Matt: I’m not a speller or a reader.
Lia: I’ll spare you. So the reason we decided to talk about aphantasia is because in an earlier episode we talked about synesthesia, and Matt was able to give his fun little story.
Matt: So you can take the baton now and give your fun stories.
Lia: That’s true. So Matt had a really fun, interesting story about his experience with synesthesia, and synesthesia was found to be associated with autism. And We later discovered that aphantasia which is kind of in the same realm or family is also found to be associated with autism. And what’s interesting is that I actually believe I — I may have aphantasia, pretty sure.
Matt: Strong possibility.
Lia: Pretty sure. I don’t know that I could deny it if I cannot —
Matt: Some of the visualization tests we’ve gone through.
Lia: So for those of you listening who have never heard of aphantasia, first of all, you’re not alone, we had no idea what this was and it only came up because I was trying to do some sort of like meditation exercises like those visualization exercises, and I could not do it.
Matt: How did that work out for you?
Lia: Well, so aphantasia, just to explain it for people, it basically is when visual imagery is either absent or significantly impaired and it doesn’t necessarily mean in all situations. So sometimes you can be somebody who experiences aphantasia and still be able to like vividly and lucidly dream. But just in like your conscious awake mode, you’re not able to kind of picture things mentally.
Matt: Well, just because it kind of would touch on different senses. It’s not just the visualization, it can also tie in a little bit to like sound as well as also like smell, I think, because I was thinking about that the other day as I was in a grocery store shopping, and I was going down like the pet aisle, and I saw kitty litter and then I was thinking like, oh gosh, like kitty litter —
Lia: Where’s this coming from? Kitty litter?
Matt: No, but like no. And I was thinking in my mind, I was like, Oh, the smell of like kitty litter after like the cats like do their business.
Lia: What?
Matt: No, but like it like like smell.
Lia: Let me get this straight. When you go to the grocery store, you start having lucid fantasies about the smell of kitty litter?
Matt: Well just because it’s it’s like repulsive. So it’s like, as I’m like pushing the cart, I see the kitty litter, I’m like, ah, that’s why we don’t have a cat. Just because of the smell of the kitty litter and when the cat does its business, it’s not a pleasant smell. But I remember from my childhood-
Lia: So you are imagining it in your head?
Matt: Well I was able to imagine the smell of it.
Lia: Ooooh, okay.
Matt: That’s my whole point of the last rambling I just went on, I was able to visualize — or is it visualize if it’s smell?
Lia: So I don’t, I don’t know, I don’t know what the word for that would be smell-arize?
Matt: But yes.
Lia: So because aphantasia, it’s primarily the absence of the visualization, but they also say that there’s like an association with smell as well. And I think they said hearing but it’s kind of like when you can remember sounds or you can remember smells and when somebody tells you imagine you’re at the beach and you hear the waves crashing on the shore, and you smell the salt of the sea, most people are able to do that. And those who have aphantasia are not able to.
Matt: Right, and that was one of the exercises that we had actually gone through and we were kind of comparing what you kind of experienced versus what I experienced, and they didn’t really line up or they weren’t the same as far as the visualization process.
Lia: Studies have been looking into both aphantasia and synesthesia, and of course, we discussed the synesthesia’s links has been found. But they also found that aphantasia is very strongly linked to imagery as well. So it’s kind of interesting because both of them actually are both synesthesia and aphantasia. It makes sense with synesthesia, because if you were able to visualize colors, it would make sense that that would go on with the visual imagining part.
Matt: Yeah, I think would kind of be like similar, but also kind of on opposite sides of the equation.
Lia: Yeah. So what the studies basically say is that those that are diagnosed with synesthesia, or aphantasia visual imagery is not actually necessary for these disorders, I guess you’d call it to occur. I’m not sure if it would be considered a disorder, probably.
Matt: Yeah, I guess I’m not sure. I mean, because I think it would tie in a little bit with your memory, because whenever, like when we’re going through the exercise, and he’s basically saying, oh, think of a beach that you’re walking on, you hear the waves crashing, you bend over, you pick up a seashell, what color’s the seashell that you’re holding — I’m able to kind of relate back to like, like a memory of whatever beach I had gone to last or the best image I have of a beach. But if you don’t have that component, I’m wondering if that also kind of ties in with your memories as well, because you’re not able to recall them, able to like visualize what you had previously seen.
Lia: In my experience with aphantasia, I can definitely say that it definitely definitely impairs my memory of things, because it’s very hard for me to remember things. So it must be associated.
Matt: I think of the perfect example was the other day when I was at work, and you were texting me because you couldn’t find your iPad. And then I text you back, I was like, oh, have you checked all these places? I was like, oh, try the top drawer on the nightstand because I remember I was able to visualize myself putting it in there closing it to kind of keep it out of the hands of our little ones running around and knocking it over.
Lia: And I actually did read a lot of studies, you just triggered a thought, because I do remember reading studies that basically say that those who have executive dysfunction, aphantasia or any other sort of mental imaging incapacity, those are people who tend to lose things more often because you can’t recreate the visual component of that. So if you can’t see the visual steps happening in your head, then it’s hard for you to recreate that in real life, and then follow those steps back to where you are.
Matt: And that’s exactly what I do. If I misplace something I try and sit down and then I try and run my memory back of like my visualization — what have I seen where was the last time and trying to like catch up? I mean, obviously —
Lia: That’s crazy to me that you can do that.
Matt: But do you have the moment like when you actually find it, and you didn’t think it was there where you have the “Ah, okay, I remember it”.
Lia: No.
Matt: Okay. So it’s like, there’s like a gap in you’re memory — or at least for me — there’s like a gap in my memory. So I think of like the last place it was and I go there and it’s not there, then if I find where it actually is, then suddenly, I have the “aha” moment in my mind where I’m like, oh, now I see myself basically putting it down in this place. But I had otherwise forgotten that that was the last place.
Lia: And this is why a lot of times kids who are autistic, they will also forget where things are and it can be very much related to this visual memory or perhaps they may have aphantasia, because if you can’t visually memorize or picture where the item is, it’s very difficult to recall it from memory. And I know for me, like you just asked me like, if I find it, is it like an aha moment? For me, no. When I find it I’m like, how did this get here? Like, I’m like, did somebody put this in here? Like, I mean, come on, let’s be honest. Every time I find something, do I not say, did the girls put this here?
Matt: That’s true.
Lia: But I guarantee you if there were security cameras, it was me. Like I probably did it. And I just can’t remember that.
Matt: But that’s interesting. And I’m actually I mean, we’re kind of learning about it right now of how it relates in real life kind of on the spot. It’s just kind of funny.
Lia: Yes.
Matt: I mean, in our personal life, I mean, obviously, like, it’s not like a laughing matter, just how it relates to us —
Lia: It kinda is.
Matt: But just how it relates to this, how it relates to like us losing things.
Lia: That’s what’s funny, like, I mean, it’s not funny when it’s happening. Obviously, I get very overwhelmed and stressed but after the fact, after we do the whole flip the house upside down to find my cell phone that I lose like, what, 10 times a day? Then it’s funny, because I’m like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe I lose my phone so frequently.
Matt: And then we play the “not it”” of who gets to clean up the mess.
Lia: Yeah, you’re always it.
Matt: I know.
Lia: But so aphantasia, the reason it like fascinates me so much is because it’s just very interesting to me personally. Not that you can’t see things, but that everyone else does see things in there mind’s eye.
Matt: Well, I mean, it is definitely interesting how it overlaps with the different senses. and it’s not just a visual component. It’s sound, smell — I’m not sure as far as touch. But yeah, I just find it interesting that it’s basically like a blanket over most of the senses.
Lia: What’s really interesting to me is that these studies are starting to see a correlation between those who have they call it aphantastic — I don’t know if I’m saying that right, but it’s spelled aphantastic — so you know, like how somebody is autistic. So someone who experiences aphantasia is aphantastic, so that’s kind of cool. It’s like I can just say, Hey, I’m aphantastic! But they find a strong correlation between aphantastics and Autistics, which makes sense because they’re basically saying that aphantasia can also relate to weaknesses in both imagination and social skills.
Matt: Which pops up I think overall with the social element that we’ve experienced with our kids where that link is, I’m not sure if it’s necessarily missing, but they don’t understand the social interactions with peers.
Lia: And then when they say that it’s associated with a weakness in imagination and social skills, I think what they mean by that is sometimes when it comes to socialization, you need to imagine a scenario to be able to know what to do next, if that makes sense.
Matt: Well, it makes sense with our daughter, because when we had gotten her the dollhouse, she was only able to play in the way that we had shown her that she was able to play so she’d have a little doll and she would take it up the stairs and go into the bathtub, I think that was the activity?
Lia: Right.
Matt: But then it was that doing that over and over up the stairs into the bathtub, then again, up the stairs over the bathtub, it was never Oh, I’m gonna go into the kitchen, I’m gonna go into the bedroom, it was always the same repetitive task. So I’m not sure if because she had seen that, that was the only way that she was actually able to play.
Lia: Aphantasia when they explain what that experience is like, they basically say that when you’re asked to form an image of a person you’re familiar with, for example, the standard typical person can basically see it within their mind. So you can see a visual and have a mental experience of that thing in a similar or near similar way that you would in real life.
Matt: That’s fair.
Lia: So if I told you to envision your child, what do you see?
Matt: So I see basically my perspective, as I’m at my desk at work, I have kind of like a bulletin board next to my computer. And I have a picture of my oldest daughter, where she’s kind of like leaning up against me with kind of her hair down and like wearing with a backwards baseball cap. So I’ve got that image of my oldest daughter, and then my youngest daughter is her sitting at her highchair with like a big smile, and like her little hand that she’s eating like a quesadilla and has like a bowl of peas. So I mean, I think that those are the images that come to mind, because I’m at my desk like 40 hours a week.
Lia: Are you though? I’m just kidding.
Matt: No, no, definitely not. But I think that is probably why because I’m seeing those images of them, probably — I mean, I have other images or pictures on my desk — But I think because I see those the most, I think that is the most referenced memory of them in my mind, if it makes sense.
Lia: See it for me, if you tell me to imagine my child, I have a really hard time A) pulling up a picture and B) keeping the picture. And even when I have the picture, it’s usually very blurred or doesn’t have many features. So when I think of my oldest child, I basically see what you would probably see as like a ghost in a way.
Matt: Always a good start.
Lia: Well because —
Matt: Creepy!
Lia: It is creepy, don’t tell me to picture my child. It’s basically just like a grayscale. So it’s like I see her wearing like a white gown, which is weird because she doesn’t wear them, it’s seriously like a horror movie.
Matt: No, I just I just had the image like, Okay, if our daughter goes missing, and you have to describe to the police what our daughter looks like.
Lia: We’re done, we’re not going to find her.
Matt: Okay, do we see any kids like in Ghost outfits on the street?
Lia: I’ll be like, the kid from that horror movie, that one, that’s ours. But I picture like her standing with her arms to her side, a gray gown, and then the face to have no facial features whatsoever, like nothing, it’s just her skin tone is like a gray wash. Like it’s not even like white or pink. Or it’s just like gray like it’s a gray, white wash.
Matt: So I so I will say when I see an image or when I see an image in my mind, it’s not a crisp, perfect image of whatever it is. It’s essentially if I’m wearing glasses that are slightly out of focus, I know what the image is, I know what it should look like. But when I see it in my memory, it’s slightly kind of blurry and I don’t have like the the sharp features that I would have. Or another way of thinking it is if I take a picture and I put it under water out of the water will kind of go over top of the picture. That’s kind of how it is my memory. It’s not a super sharp image. But it’s enough to recognize what the ultimate end image is. I guess if that makes sense.
Lia: See, for me, I think what I am doing is I’m finding a representation of it, but it’s not actually it. And it actually rings a bell now because I have read some stuff on Temple Grandin — she’s like a super famous, she’s an autistic adult who’s an advocate and all this and she’s very famous for autism advocacy work — and she had written a book that’s about thinking in pictures because that’s how she thinks and her theories that other autistics do as well. That’s debatable, but at least for her, that’s how her mind works. And the way that she thinks is like if you tell her to picture a steeple, she pictures a very specific steeple that she has seen in her life. So it’s not like a generic church steeple. What I think that’s interesting is with my experience of aphantasia, I experiencee kind of like the reverse of that. So like, instead of seeing a very specific steeple that I’ve seen in reality, I get a very vague generic thing that I have never seen.
Matt: So like something you would have Googled, like a steeple, and like another country that we’ve never traveled to?
Lia: No, like, how I just explained the visual of our first child.
Matt: Okay.
Lia: like I envision —
Matt: You create your own new steeple?
Lia: Right, like I created a picture of a child with no face features, grayscale, and all this stuff. And our child doesn’t actually look like that. But it’s a child.
Matt: Is that with all images that you do that? I’m just I’m just curious.
Lia: I’m actually now realizing that probably, yes.
Matt: Like if I’m saying, picture a mountain, like, are you creating the mountain or —
Lia: Yes, like, if you tell me to picture a mountain or a sunset, a beach every single time I picture that I picture the same template. So like, I can’t really alter it to look differently. And it’s very difficult for me to keep that picture in my mental focus. So if you tell me to picture a sunset, I struggle to bring up the sun and when I can finally bring a sun, it starts off all black and nothingness. And then when I finally bring up the sun, as soon as you tell me like, Okay, now picture a mountain view behind the sun, I cannot then pull up the mountain view and keep the sun I have to like choose between the two. because it’s such a mental effort to get any image whatsoever.
Matt: I think I’m getting what you’re saying it’s similar in a way. So if you tell me to picture, the sun, the sky, all that, but then if you say, Okay, think of the mountain now, my viewpoint, my perception, it’s focusing on the mountain, so the sun is still there, but it’s kind of faded into the background. And as you’re throwing more things, whatever was previously given is further kind of buried.
Lia: And I can’t do that.
Matt: Okay, so if you if you say, Okay, think of a sun in the sky, and then a mountain in front of it, and then a log cabin. So for me, the log cabin is the closest thing that I can see. But I still know and kind of see the mountain in the sunset still behind it. But obviously, the main focus is on the cabin, because that was the most —
Lia: — recent thing that was said.
Matt: — recent information that was provided.
Lia: Right, and that’s normal to be able to recall things more recently in more vivid detail. But for me, I’m lucky if I can picture the first step that you give me like if I am told to picture something, I’m lucky if I can just even picture that. If you want me to move on from that step. Like forget about it, I can’t.
Matt: It’s just interesting that you kind of recreate kind of you were seeing like a template for whatever it was, instead of trying to reference something that you had previously seen. I mean, cuz sometimes, like, yeah, you haven’t seen something so you’ve got to use your imagination. But it’s interesting that you would almost choose to I mean, not maybe it’s not, I mean, obviously, like a choice.
Lia: It’s not really a choice, it’s subconscious.
Matt: Right, well, I just have like the image of like, almost like in a Word document, you like creating a sunset. And then you have like a little —
Lia: It’s like very mechanical.
Matt: Right.
Lia: It’s not like it’s authentically happening and I’m experiencing it and this is an experience that is happening to me, it’s more like I am happening to it. I am trying to make it happen.
Matt: And then you have like a little paperclip guy come over and say it looks like you’re trying to create a sunset, do you need help?
Lia: And no, the problem is I don’t have that guy. And that’s the that’s why it never gets done. It’s more like I’m sitting there waiting for his message and I’m like, where‘d he go?
Matt: Windows 95 or 90. I don’t even remember what it was.
Lia: I don’t even remember because I’m a Mac girl.
Matt: There we go.
Lia: What’s cool is I ran into this study, and they basically had a bunch of participants that were shown three images of a living room, a kitchen and a bedroom. And they were each asked to draw each one from memory. And what they found is that their drawings were basically objectively reviewed, they had a ton of people looking at this. And then what they found was that those with aphantasia found it difficult to draw an image from memory because they can’t summon the pictures in their mind’s eye. What’s really funny to me about that is, I grew up in a ton of art classes, because my family is very artistic. So I’ve always been very much into art. And the one thing that I could never understand and now suddenly makes a ton of sense to me is I could never ever draw anything from memory or like from my mind, like I couldn’t create artistically from a vision that’s in my head and put it on paper. I could create fantastically from something in front of me. So if you give me picture I can do a pastel drawing of it, I can paint it and I can replicate it pretty well but I can’t draw something from my head and put it on paper when it comes to images.
Matt: That makes sense to me. But I’m trying to think like for me like obviously I’m not an artist but I will always was interested in like geography so like as far as like recreating maps, I cannot recreate a map for memory like if I’m trying to draw like the coast of like Canada or something. But if I’m looking at like a picture of Canada, I can like draw the geography so but I’m not sure if that’s the same ballpark or is that totally different?
Lia: I would say that’s totally different because that is you recalling very specific detailed information on geography like that’s, that’s really hard to do. I don’t think a lot of people could do that.
Matt: Okay.
Lia: Could you out of memory, just draw an outline of like the state that you live in? Or like something that you’re more familiar with.
Matt: Okay.
Lia: Because it’s all about things that you actually are very familiar with, or you know but you just can’t pull from your memory to put onto a visualization or anything like that.
Matt: Okay, that makes sense. I probably do that, I gotcha. Sidebar.
Lia: So what was interesting is the study is that the participants that did have aphantasia, whenever they could not recall the image, they showed that they actually recall that the image was supposed to be there, but they couldn’t remember, like what it looked like. So for example, if they were remembering that there was supposed to be a bed, then what they would do is they would just write down the word bed, or if they knew that, oh, this is supposed to be a chair, they would just write down the word chair, because they couldn’t recall the image. But they could recall that there was supposed to be that there.
Matt: They are aware enough in their memory, that they’re able to recall that it’s there, but might not know exactly what it looks like. I mean, I think that’s fair. I mean, that’s probably better than I could do what I mean I’m not an artistic person whatsoever, so I mean, I feel like that’s half the battle.
Lia: The study’s basically indicating that those with aphantasia can use strategies like verbal representation, instead of visual memory to be able to recall information, that means you can probably help accommodate that need. For instance, if you do discover your child may have aphantasia or struggle with aphantasia, that would be a great accommodation to put in like an IEP or something and say, Hey, instead of having them have to visualize something, why not have them have to recall the word for it or something like that, because it’s written verbal instead of image.
Matt: And I think, once you’re aware of what it is and how to kind of work around to get the same result. I think that is something that’s very doable.
Lia: Ultimately, what the studies indicate is that those who’d have aphantasia have a normal spatial imagery ability, because they were able to remember where things were located in the, in their mind from, like the painting that they’re trying to do basically, they just weren’t able to represent things very specifically in terms of imagery related memory tasks, which is why I can’t visualize where my keys are.
Matt: That’s where we get the little like thing that beeps where you can find it.
Lia: One of these days, we’ll have to get one. I just thought it’d be really interesting to talk about aphantasia because I feel like it’s one of those things that if you are like me, or your child is like me, you might grow up your whole life and have no idea that you even have it because who talks about how they visualize things. I didn’t realize that I had an inability to visualize things until I started trying to do some meditation and tried to do some like self care. I didn’t even know that was a thing because it doesn’t come up in conversation.
Matt: Well the same thing is too is, you still have images when you’re dreaming.
Lia: Yes. So lucid dream very vividly.
Matt: So someone who’s able to lucid dream, you wouldn’t necessarily know Oh, I can lucid dream, but I have a hard time visualizing when I’m awake.
Lia: Yeah.
Matt: You wouldn’t necessarily think that I mean that.
Lia: Well, and I grew up my entire life thinking that that’s how everyone else visualized.
Matt: Right because you have no reference point because you can’t —
Lia: Yeah
Matt: — visualize what someone else is visualizing. So I mean, it’s your own experience.
Lia: That’s like the “Inception” of visualization.
Matt: Right, so that’s basically like, you don’t know what you don’t know.
Lia: Right, exactly. So like growing up my entire life up until — what this year? I basically thought everyone else saw things the way I did. I thought that when people said that they were visualizing something I thought that they were just pretending in a way. I mean, I don’t know how to explain it. I just thought that people were going through the routine of yes, I’m picturing a beach. Yes, I hear the waves crashing. Yes. I just thought that people just did it. I don’t even know why.
Matt: I don’t mean to laugh, but I’m just thinking of us sitting you know, where they have like those like psychics that are trying to hypnotize you?
Lia: The couch where they’re…yeah.
Matt: Where they’re like, Oh, you’re becoming very sleepy. And then they like walk you through?
Lia: Yeah, like meditation? Yeah.
Matt: Right I just have that vision of like, you just like sitting there, like, twiddling your thumbs.
Lia: That’s exactly what I — that’s what I go through. I literally, I always feel like either I feel dumb because I must be doing something wrong because this isn’t working for me. Or I was like, maybe this person doesn’t know what they’re talking about and this is bunk. But then there’s so many studies supporting that type of therapy and stuff that I was like, something’s wrong.
Matt: Yeah, so if I was just thinking of you to sitting down there just like everyone else is like doing their visualization, your eyes open just kind of hanging out.
Lia: And that’s basically aphantasia.
Matt: But now you know though.
Lia: Yeah, now I know.
Matt: That’s basically half the battle.
Lia: Now I know but I do not see. That is basically aphantasia in a nutshell, we just thought it’d be a fun little thing to bring up since it’s new and different. I hope you guys enjoyed that bit of information.
Matt: And we’ll see you next time.
Lia: Have a good one guys.
Matt: Bye.
Outro:
In this episode, we explored what it’s like to experience aphantasia and how there’s a higher prevalence in autistic individuals than the general population. We discuss how it may be difficult for some to capture both visual images or accompanying sounds. We also know that although those who experience aphantasia may not be able to visualize images, it is still possible to dream vividly in many cases.
Tune in next time as we examine the differences between autistic meltdowns and tantrums. We answer questions such as, how can I know if my child is having a meltdown or simply having a tantrum? What can I do to help my child during a meltdown? And how can I try to prevent future meltdowns from happening? This is Embracing Autism.
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References:
Link between Aphantasia and Imagery in Autism
Mental imagery and visual working memory
Aphantasia Living Room, Bedroom, Kitchen Drawing Study
Show Notes for Embracing Autism Podcast — Ep. 207
Introduction:
Lia: Join us today as we explore what it means to have aphantasia, how it relates to autism and how it may overlap with the other senses.
Lia: Welcome to Embracing Autism, a podcast for parents of autistic children seeking advice and support while spreading awareness and acceptance of Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Lia: I’m Lia.
Matt: And I’m Matt.
Lia: And each week we will discuss our journey with autism and talk about how to embrace your child’s individuality while providing guidance, tips, resources and sharing our personal stories. This is —
Lia & Matt: Embracing Autism!
Lia: Hello, hello. Welcome back, everyone.
Matt: Here we are, again. Take two.
Lia: Or three or four who knows how many takes it takes us at this point.
Matt: Alright.
Lia: So today we’re going to be talking about aphantasia —
Matt: Aaaay!
Lia: And I don’t think pretty much anyone knows what that is.
Matt: We do.
Lia: We didn’t even know what that was though.
Matt: But we do know we do now.
Lia: So we will guide you on this tour.
Matt: Aphantasia is the word of the day.
Lia: Spell it.
Matt: A…
Lia: No cheating!
Matt: Actually I have it written down, but it’s how I spell it — so it’s wrong.
Lia: Okay, I want to know how do you spell aphantasia?
Matt: Haha No, it’s too bad.
Lia: Okay, we’ll move on, we’ll move on.
Matt: I’m not a speller or a reader.
Lia: I’ll spare you. So the reason we decided to talk about aphantasia is because in an earlier episode we talked about synesthesia, and Matt was able to give his fun little story.
Matt: So you can take the baton now and give your fun stories.
Lia: That’s true. So Matt had a really fun, interesting story about his experience with synesthesia, and synesthesia was found to be associated with autism. And We later discovered that aphantasia which is kind of in the same realm or family is also found to be associated with autism. And what’s interesting is that I actually believe I — I may have aphantasia, pretty sure.
Matt: Strong possibility.
Lia: Pretty sure. I don’t know that I could deny it if I cannot —
Matt: Some of the visualization tests we’ve gone through.
Lia: So for those of you listening who have never heard of aphantasia, first of all, you’re not alone, we had no idea what this was and it only came up because I was trying to do some sort of like meditation exercises like those visualization exercises, and I could not do it.
Matt: How did that work out for you?
Lia: Well, so aphantasia, just to explain it for people, it basically is when visual imagery is either absent or significantly impaired and it doesn’t necessarily mean in all situations. So sometimes you can be somebody who experiences aphantasia and still be able to like vividly and lucidly dream. But just in like your conscious awake mode, you’re not able to kind of picture things mentally.
Matt: Well, just because it kind of would touch on different senses. It’s not just the visualization, it can also tie in a little bit to like sound as well as also like smell, I think, because I was thinking about that the other day as I was in a grocery store shopping, and I was going down like the pet aisle, and I saw kitty litter and then I was thinking like, oh gosh, like kitty litter —
Lia: Where’s this coming from? Kitty litter?
Matt: No, but like no. And I was thinking in my mind, I was like, Oh, the smell of like kitty litter after like the cats like do their business.
Lia: What?
Matt: No, but like it like like smell.
Lia: Let me get this straight. When you go to the grocery store, you start having lucid fantasies about the smell of kitty litter?
Matt: Well just because it’s it’s like repulsive. So it’s like, as I’m like pushing the cart, I see the kitty litter, I’m like, ah, that’s why we don’t have a cat. Just because of the smell of the kitty litter and when the cat does its business, it’s not a pleasant smell. But I remember from my childhood-
Lia: So you are imagining it in your head?
Matt: Well I was able to imagine the smell of it.
Lia: Ooooh, okay.
Matt: That’s my whole point of the last rambling I just went on, I was able to visualize — or is it visualize if it’s smell?
Lia: So I don’t, I don’t know, I don’t know what the word for that would be smell-arize?
Matt: But yes.
Lia: So because aphantasia, it’s primarily the absence of the visualization, but they also say that there’s like an association with smell as well. And I think they said hearing but it’s kind of like when you can remember sounds or you can remember smells and when somebody tells you imagine you’re at the beach and you hear the waves crashing on the shore, and you smell the salt of the sea, most people are able to do that. And those who have aphantasia are not able to.
Matt: Right, and that was one of the exercises that we had actually gone through and we were kind of comparing what you kind of experienced versus what I experienced, and they didn’t really line up or they weren’t the same as far as the visualization process.
Lia: Studies have been looking into both aphantasia and synesthesia, and of course, we discussed the synesthesia’s links has been found. But they also found that aphantasia is very strongly linked to imagery as well. So it’s kind of interesting because both of them actually are both synesthesia and aphantasia. It makes sense with synesthesia, because if you were able to visualize colors, it would make sense that that would go on with the visual imagining part.
Matt: Yeah, I think would kind of be like similar, but also kind of on opposite sides of the equation.
Lia: Yeah. So what the studies basically say is that those that are diagnosed with synesthesia, or aphantasia visual imagery is not actually necessary for these disorders, I guess you’d call it to occur. I’m not sure if it would be considered a disorder, probably.
Matt: Yeah, I guess I’m not sure. I mean, because I think it would tie in a little bit with your memory, because whenever, like when we’re going through the exercise, and he’s basically saying, oh, think of a beach that you’re walking on, you hear the waves crashing, you bend over, you pick up a seashell, what color’s the seashell that you’re holding — I’m able to kind of relate back to like, like a memory of whatever beach I had gone to last or the best image I have of a beach. But if you don’t have that component, I’m wondering if that also kind of ties in with your memories as well, because you’re not able to recall them, able to like visualize what you had previously seen.
Lia: In my experience with aphantasia, I can definitely say that it definitely definitely impairs my memory of things, because it’s very hard for me to remember things. So it must be associated.
Matt: I think of the perfect example was the other day when I was at work, and you were texting me because you couldn’t find your iPad. And then I text you back, I was like, oh, have you checked all these places? I was like, oh, try the top drawer on the nightstand because I remember I was able to visualize myself putting it in there closing it to kind of keep it out of the hands of our little ones running around and knocking it over.
Lia: And I actually did read a lot of studies, you just triggered a thought, because I do remember reading studies that basically say that those who have executive dysfunction, aphantasia or any other sort of mental imaging incapacity, those are people who tend to lose things more often because you can’t recreate the visual component of that. So if you can’t see the visual steps happening in your head, then it’s hard for you to recreate that in real life, and then follow those steps back to where you are.
Matt: And that’s exactly what I do. If I misplace something I try and sit down and then I try and run my memory back of like my visualization — what have I seen where was the last time and trying to like catch up? I mean, obviously —
Lia: That’s crazy to me that you can do that.
Matt: But do you have the moment like when you actually find it, and you didn’t think it was there where you have the “Ah, okay, I remember it”.
Lia: No.
Matt: Okay. So it’s like, there’s like a gap in you’re memory — or at least for me — there’s like a gap in my memory. So I think of like the last place it was and I go there and it’s not there, then if I find where it actually is, then suddenly, I have the “aha” moment in my mind where I’m like, oh, now I see myself basically putting it down in this place. But I had otherwise forgotten that that was the last place.
Lia: And this is why a lot of times kids who are autistic, they will also forget where things are and it can be very much related to this visual memory or perhaps they may have aphantasia, because if you can’t visually memorize or picture where the item is, it’s very difficult to recall it from memory. And I know for me, like you just asked me like, if I find it, is it like an aha moment? For me, no. When I find it I’m like, how did this get here? Like, I’m like, did somebody put this in here? Like, I mean, come on, let’s be honest. Every time I find something, do I not say, did the girls put this here?
Matt: That’s true.
Lia: But I guarantee you if there were security cameras, it was me. Like I probably did it. And I just can’t remember that.
Matt: But that’s interesting. And I’m actually I mean, we’re kind of learning about it right now of how it relates in real life kind of on the spot. It’s just kind of funny.
Lia: Yes.
Matt: I mean, in our personal life, I mean, obviously, like, it’s not like a laughing matter, just how it relates to us —
Lia: It kinda is.
Matt: But just how it relates to this, how it relates to like us losing things.
Lia: That’s what’s funny, like, I mean, it’s not funny when it’s happening. Obviously, I get very overwhelmed and stressed but after the fact, after we do the whole flip the house upside down to find my cell phone that I lose like, what, 10 times a day? Then it’s funny, because I’m like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe I lose my phone so frequently.
Matt: And then we play the “not it”” of who gets to clean up the mess.
Lia: Yeah, you’re always it.
Matt: I know.
Lia: But so aphantasia, the reason it like fascinates me so much is because it’s just very interesting to me personally. Not that you can’t see things, but that everyone else does see things in there mind’s eye.
Matt: Well, I mean, it is definitely interesting how it overlaps with the different senses. and it’s not just a visual component. It’s sound, smell — I’m not sure as far as touch. But yeah, I just find it interesting that it’s basically like a blanket over most of the senses.
Lia: What’s really interesting to me is that these studies are starting to see a correlation between those who have they call it aphantastic — I don’t know if I’m saying that right, but it’s spelled aphantastic — so you know, like how somebody is autistic. So someone who experiences aphantasia is aphantastic, so that’s kind of cool. It’s like I can just say, Hey, I’m aphantastic! But they find a strong correlation between aphantastics and Autistics, which makes sense because they’re basically saying that aphantasia can also relate to weaknesses in both imagination and social skills.
Matt: Which pops up I think overall with the social element that we’ve experienced with our kids where that link is, I’m not sure if it’s necessarily missing, but they don’t understand the social interactions with peers.
Lia: And then when they say that it’s associated with a weakness in imagination and social skills, I think what they mean by that is sometimes when it comes to socialization, you need to imagine a scenario to be able to know what to do next, if that makes sense.
Matt: Well, it makes sense with our daughter, because when we had gotten her the dollhouse, she was only able to play in the way that we had shown her that she was able to play so she’d have a little doll and she would take it up the stairs and go into the bathtub, I think that was the activity?
Lia: Right.
Matt: But then it was that doing that over and over up the stairs into the bathtub, then again, up the stairs over the bathtub, it was never Oh, I’m gonna go into the kitchen, I’m gonna go into the bedroom, it was always the same repetitive task. So I’m not sure if because she had seen that, that was the only way that she was actually able to play.
Lia: Aphantasia when they explain what that experience is like, they basically say that when you’re asked to form an image of a person you’re familiar with, for example, the standard typical person can basically see it within their mind. So you can see a visual and have a mental experience of that thing in a similar or near similar way that you would in real life.
Matt: That’s fair.
Lia: So if I told you to envision your child, what do you see?
Matt: So I see basically my perspective, as I’m at my desk at work, I have kind of like a bulletin board next to my computer. And I have a picture of my oldest daughter, where she’s kind of like leaning up against me with kind of her hair down and like wearing with a backwards baseball cap. So I’ve got that image of my oldest daughter, and then my youngest daughter is her sitting at her highchair with like a big smile, and like her little hand that she’s eating like a quesadilla and has like a bowl of peas. So I mean, I think that those are the images that come to mind, because I’m at my desk like 40 hours a week.
Lia: Are you though? I’m just kidding.
Matt: No, no, definitely not. But I think that is probably why because I’m seeing those images of them, probably — I mean, I have other images or pictures on my desk — But I think because I see those the most, I think that is the most referenced memory of them in my mind, if it makes sense.
Lia: See it for me, if you tell me to imagine my child, I have a really hard time A) pulling up a picture and B) keeping the picture. And even when I have the picture, it’s usually very blurred or doesn’t have many features. So when I think of my oldest child, I basically see what you would probably see as like a ghost in a way.
Matt: Always a good start.
Lia: Well because —
Matt: Creepy!
Lia: It is creepy, don’t tell me to picture my child. It’s basically just like a grayscale. So it’s like I see her wearing like a white gown, which is weird because she doesn’t wear them, it’s seriously like a horror movie.
Matt: No, I just I just had the image like, Okay, if our daughter goes missing, and you have to describe to the police what our daughter looks like.
Lia: We’re done, we’re not going to find her.
Matt: Okay, do we see any kids like in Ghost outfits on the street?
Lia: I’ll be like, the kid from that horror movie, that one, that’s ours. But I picture like her standing with her arms to her side, a gray gown, and then the face to have no facial features whatsoever, like nothing, it’s just her skin tone is like a gray wash. Like it’s not even like white or pink. Or it’s just like gray like it’s a gray, white wash.
Matt: So I so I will say when I see an image or when I see an image in my mind, it’s not a crisp, perfect image of whatever it is. It’s essentially if I’m wearing glasses that are slightly out of focus, I know what the image is, I know what it should look like. But when I see it in my memory, it’s slightly kind of blurry and I don’t have like the the sharp features that I would have. Or another way of thinking it is if I take a picture and I put it under water out of the water will kind of go over top of the picture. That’s kind of how it is my memory. It’s not a super sharp image. But it’s enough to recognize what the ultimate end image is. I guess if that makes sense.
Lia: See, for me, I think what I am doing is I’m finding a representation of it, but it’s not actually it. And it actually rings a bell now because I have read some stuff on Temple Grandin — she’s like a super famous, she’s an autistic adult who’s an advocate and all this and she’s very famous for autism advocacy work — and she had written a book that’s about thinking in pictures because that’s how she thinks and her theories that other autistics do as well. That’s debatable, but at least for her, that’s how her mind works. And the way that she thinks is like if you tell her to picture a steeple, she pictures a very specific steeple that she has seen in her life. So it’s not like a generic church steeple. What I think that’s interesting is with my experience of aphantasia, I experiencee kind of like the reverse of that. So like, instead of seeing a very specific steeple that I’ve seen in reality, I get a very vague generic thing that I have never seen.
Matt: So like something you would have Googled, like a steeple, and like another country that we’ve never traveled to?
Lia: No, like, how I just explained the visual of our first child.
Matt: Okay.
Lia: like I envision —
Matt: You create your own new steeple?
Lia: Right, like I created a picture of a child with no face features, grayscale, and all this stuff. And our child doesn’t actually look like that. But it’s a child.
Matt: Is that with all images that you do that? I’m just I’m just curious.
Lia: I’m actually now realizing that probably, yes.
Matt: Like if I’m saying, picture a mountain, like, are you creating the mountain or —
Lia: Yes, like, if you tell me to picture a mountain or a sunset, a beach every single time I picture that I picture the same template. So like, I can’t really alter it to look differently. And it’s very difficult for me to keep that picture in my mental focus. So if you tell me to picture a sunset, I struggle to bring up the sun and when I can finally bring a sun, it starts off all black and nothingness. And then when I finally bring up the sun, as soon as you tell me like, Okay, now picture a mountain view behind the sun, I cannot then pull up the mountain view and keep the sun I have to like choose between the two. because it’s such a mental effort to get any image whatsoever.
Matt: I think I’m getting what you’re saying it’s similar in a way. So if you tell me to picture, the sun, the sky, all that, but then if you say, Okay, think of the mountain now, my viewpoint, my perception, it’s focusing on the mountain, so the sun is still there, but it’s kind of faded into the background. And as you’re throwing more things, whatever was previously given is further kind of buried.
Lia: And I can’t do that.
Matt: Okay, so if you if you say, Okay, think of a sun in the sky, and then a mountain in front of it, and then a log cabin. So for me, the log cabin is the closest thing that I can see. But I still know and kind of see the mountain in the sunset still behind it. But obviously, the main focus is on the cabin, because that was the most —
Lia: — recent thing that was said.
Matt: — recent information that was provided.
Lia: Right, and that’s normal to be able to recall things more recently in more vivid detail. But for me, I’m lucky if I can picture the first step that you give me like if I am told to picture something, I’m lucky if I can just even picture that. If you want me to move on from that step. Like forget about it, I can’t.
Matt: It’s just interesting that you kind of recreate kind of you were seeing like a template for whatever it was, instead of trying to reference something that you had previously seen. I mean, cuz sometimes, like, yeah, you haven’t seen something so you’ve got to use your imagination. But it’s interesting that you would almost choose to I mean, not maybe it’s not, I mean, obviously, like a choice.
Lia: It’s not really a choice, it’s subconscious.
Matt: Right, well, I just have like the image of like, almost like in a Word document, you like creating a sunset. And then you have like a little —
Lia: It’s like very mechanical.
Matt: Right.
Lia: It’s not like it’s authentically happening and I’m experiencing it and this is an experience that is happening to me, it’s more like I am happening to it. I am trying to make it happen.
Matt: And then you have like a little paperclip guy come over and say it looks like you’re trying to create a sunset, do you need help?
Lia: And no, the problem is I don’t have that guy. And that’s the that’s why it never gets done. It’s more like I’m sitting there waiting for his message and I’m like, where‘d he go?
Matt: Windows 95 or 90. I don’t even remember what it was.
Lia: I don’t even remember because I’m a Mac girl.
Matt: There we go.
Lia: What’s cool is I ran into this study, and they basically had a bunch of participants that were shown three images of a living room, a kitchen and a bedroom. And they were each asked to draw each one from memory. And what they found is that their drawings were basically objectively reviewed, they had a ton of people looking at this. And then what they found was that those with aphantasia found it difficult to draw an image from memory because they can’t summon the pictures in their mind’s eye. What’s really funny to me about that is, I grew up in a ton of art classes, because my family is very artistic. So I’ve always been very much into art. And the one thing that I could never understand and now suddenly makes a ton of sense to me is I could never ever draw anything from memory or like from my mind, like I couldn’t create artistically from a vision that’s in my head and put it on paper. I could create fantastically from something in front of me. So if you give me picture I can do a pastel drawing of it, I can paint it and I can replicate it pretty well but I can’t draw something from my head and put it on paper when it comes to images.
Matt: That makes sense to me. But I’m trying to think like for me like obviously I’m not an artist but I will always was interested in like geography so like as far as like recreating maps, I cannot recreate a map for memory like if I’m trying to draw like the coast of like Canada or something. But if I’m looking at like a picture of Canada, I can like draw the geography so but I’m not sure if that’s the same ballpark or is that totally different?
Lia: I would say that’s totally different because that is you recalling very specific detailed information on geography like that’s, that’s really hard to do. I don’t think a lot of people could do that.
Matt: Okay.
Lia: Could you out of memory, just draw an outline of like the state that you live in? Or like something that you’re more familiar with.
Matt: Okay.
Lia: Because it’s all about things that you actually are very familiar with, or you know but you just can’t pull from your memory to put onto a visualization or anything like that.
Matt: Okay, that makes sense. I probably do that, I gotcha. Sidebar.
Lia: So what was interesting is the study is that the participants that did have aphantasia, whenever they could not recall the image, they showed that they actually recall that the image was supposed to be there, but they couldn’t remember, like what it looked like. So for example, if they were remembering that there was supposed to be a bed, then what they would do is they would just write down the word bed, or if they knew that, oh, this is supposed to be a chair, they would just write down the word chair, because they couldn’t recall the image. But they could recall that there was supposed to be that there.
Matt: They are aware enough in their memory, that they’re able to recall that it’s there, but might not know exactly what it looks like. I mean, I think that’s fair. I mean, that’s probably better than I could do what I mean I’m not an artistic person whatsoever, so I mean, I feel like that’s half the battle.
Lia: The study’s basically indicating that those with aphantasia can use strategies like verbal representation, instead of visual memory to be able to recall information, that means you can probably help accommodate that need. For instance, if you do discover your child may have aphantasia or struggle with aphantasia, that would be a great accommodation to put in like an IEP or something and say, Hey, instead of having them have to visualize something, why not have them have to recall the word for it or something like that, because it’s written verbal instead of image.
Matt: And I think, once you’re aware of what it is and how to kind of work around to get the same result. I think that is something that’s very doable.
Lia: Ultimately, what the studies indicate is that those who’d have aphantasia have a normal spatial imagery ability, because they were able to remember where things were located in the, in their mind from, like the painting that they’re trying to do basically, they just weren’t able to represent things very specifically in terms of imagery related memory tasks, which is why I can’t visualize where my keys are.
Matt: That’s where we get the little like thing that beeps where you can find it.
Lia: One of these days, we’ll have to get one. I just thought it’d be really interesting to talk about aphantasia because I feel like it’s one of those things that if you are like me, or your child is like me, you might grow up your whole life and have no idea that you even have it because who talks about how they visualize things. I didn’t realize that I had an inability to visualize things until I started trying to do some meditation and tried to do some like self care. I didn’t even know that was a thing because it doesn’t come up in conversation.
Matt: Well the same thing is too is, you still have images when you’re dreaming.
Lia: Yes. So lucid dream very vividly.
Matt: So someone who’s able to lucid dream, you wouldn’t necessarily know Oh, I can lucid dream, but I have a hard time visualizing when I’m awake.
Lia: Yeah.
Matt: You wouldn’t necessarily think that I mean that.
Lia: Well, and I grew up my entire life thinking that that’s how everyone else visualized.
Matt: Right because you have no reference point because you can’t —
Lia: Yeah
Matt: — visualize what someone else is visualizing. So I mean, it’s your own experience.
Lia: That’s like the “Inception” of visualization.
Matt: Right, so that’s basically like, you don’t know what you don’t know.
Lia: Right, exactly. So like growing up my entire life up until — what this year? I basically thought everyone else saw things the way I did. I thought that when people said that they were visualizing something I thought that they were just pretending in a way. I mean, I don’t know how to explain it. I just thought that people were going through the routine of yes, I’m picturing a beach. Yes, I hear the waves crashing. Yes. I just thought that people just did it. I don’t even know why.
Matt: I don’t mean to laugh, but I’m just thinking of us sitting you know, where they have like those like psychics that are trying to hypnotize you?
Lia: The couch where they’re…yeah.
Matt: Where they’re like, Oh, you’re becoming very sleepy. And then they like walk you through?
Lia: Yeah, like meditation? Yeah.
Matt: Right I just have that vision of like, you just like sitting there, like, twiddling your thumbs.
Lia: That’s exactly what I — that’s what I go through. I literally, I always feel like either I feel dumb because I must be doing something wrong because this isn’t working for me. Or I was like, maybe this person doesn’t know what they’re talking about and this is bunk. But then there’s so many studies supporting that type of therapy and stuff that I was like, something’s wrong.
Matt: Yeah, so if I was just thinking of you to sitting down there just like everyone else is like doing their visualization, your eyes open just kind of hanging out.
Lia: And that’s basically aphantasia.
Matt: But now you know though.
Lia: Yeah, now I know.
Matt: That’s basically half the battle.
Lia: Now I know but I do not see. That is basically aphantasia in a nutshell, we just thought it’d be a fun little thing to bring up since it’s new and different. I hope you guys enjoyed that bit of information.
Matt: And we’ll see you next time.
Lia: Have a good one guys.
Matt: Bye.
Outro:
In this episode, we explored what it’s like to experience aphantasia and how there’s a higher prevalence in autistic individuals than the general population. We discuss how it may be difficult for some to capture both visual images or accompanying sounds. We also know that although those who experience aphantasia may not be able to visualize images, it is still possible to dream vividly in many cases.
Tune in next time as we examine the differences between autistic meltdowns and tantrums. We answer questions such as, how can I know if my child is having a meltdown or simply having a tantrum? What can I do to help my child during a meltdown? And how can I try to prevent future meltdowns from happening? This is Embracing Autism.
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References:
Link between Aphantasia and Imagery in Autism
Mental imagery and visual working memory
Aphantasia Living Room, Bedroom, Kitchen Drawing Study
