{"id":1367,"date":"2021-10-22T05:00:00","date_gmt":"2021-10-22T09:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/autismwish.org\/?post_type=podcast&#038;p=1367"},"modified":"2022-12-27T15:31:19","modified_gmt":"2022-12-27T20:31:19","slug":"207","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/autismwish.org\/podcast\/207\/","title":{"rendered":"EP 207 &#8211; Understanding Aphantasia"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>We explore what it means to have Aphantasia, how it relates to autism, and how it may overlap with the other senses.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-create-block-castos-transcript\"><div class=\"ssp-transcript\"><div class=\"row\"><div class=\"col\"><div class=\"tabs\"><div class=\"tab\"><input type=\"checkbox\" id=\"chck1\"\/><label class=\"tab-label ssp-transcript-title\" for=\"chck1\">Transcript<\/label><div class=\"tab-content ssp-transcript-content\"><strong>Understanding Aphantasia<br><\/strong>Show Notes for\u00a0<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"http:\/\/autismwish.org\/podcast-2\/\" target=\"_blank\">Embracing Autism Podcast<\/a>\u00a0\u2014\u00a0<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"http:\/\/autismwish.org\/podcast\/207\" target=\"_blank\">Ep. 207<\/a><br><br><strong>Introduction:<br><\/strong><br><strong>Lia:\u00a0<\/strong>Join us today as we explore what it means to have aphantasia, how it relates to autism and how it may overlap with the other senses.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0Welcome to\u00a0<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"http:\/\/autismwish.org\/podcast-2\/\" target=\"_blank\">Embracing Autism<\/a>, a podcast for parents of autistic children seeking advice and support while spreading awareness and acceptance of Autism Spectrum Disorder.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m Lia.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0And I\u2019m Matt.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0And each week we will discuss our journey with autism and talk about how to embrace your child\u2019s individuality while providing guidance, tips, resources and sharing our personal stories. This is \u2014<br><br><strong>Lia &amp; Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0Embracing Autism!<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Hello, hello. Welcome back, everyone.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Here we are, again. Take two.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Or three or four who knows how many takes it takes us at this point.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Alright.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: So today we\u2019re going to be talking about aphantasia \u2014<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Aaaay!<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: And I don\u2019t think pretty much anyone knows what that is.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0We do.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0We didn\u2019t even know what that was though.<br><br><strong>Matt:\u00a0<\/strong>But we do know we do now.<br><br><strong>Lia:\u00a0<\/strong>So we will guide you on this tour.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0Aphantasia is the word of the day.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0Spell it.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0A\u2026<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0No cheating!<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0Actually I have it written down, but it\u2019s how I spell it \u2014 so it\u2019s wrong.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, I want to know how do you spell aphantasia?<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0Haha No, it\u2019s too bad.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, we\u2019ll move on, we\u2019ll move on.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m not a speller or a reader.<br><br><strong>Lia:\u00a0<\/strong>I\u2019ll spare you. So the reason we decided to talk about aphantasia is because in an earlier episode we talked about synesthesia, and Matt was able to give his fun little story.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: So you can take the baton now and give your fun stories.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: That\u2019s true. So Matt had a really fun, interesting story about his experience with synesthesia, and synesthesia was found to be associated with autism. And We later discovered that aphantasia which is kind of in the same realm or family is also found to be associated with autism. And what\u2019s interesting is that I actually believe I \u2014 I may have aphantasia, pretty sure.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0Strong possibility.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0Pretty sure. I don\u2019t know that I could deny it if I cannot \u2014<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Some of the visualization tests we\u2019ve gone through.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: So for those of you listening who have never heard of aphantasia, first of all, you\u2019re not alone, we had no idea what this was and it only came up because I was trying to do some sort of like meditation exercises like those visualization exercises, and I could not do it.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: How did that work out for you?<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, so aphantasia, just to explain it for people, it basically is when visual imagery is either absent or significantly impaired and it doesn\u2019t necessarily mean in all situations. So sometimes you can be somebody who experiences aphantasia and still be able to like vividly and lucidly dream. But just in like your conscious awake mode, you\u2019re not able to kind of picture things mentally.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, just because it kind of would touch on different senses. It\u2019s not just the visualization, it can also tie in a little bit to like sound as well as also like smell, I think, because I was thinking about that the other day as I was in a grocery store shopping, and I was going down like the pet aisle, and I saw kitty litter and then I was thinking like, oh gosh, like kitty litter \u2014<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0Where\u2019s this coming from? Kitty litter?<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0No, but like no. And I was thinking in my mind, I was like, Oh, the smell of like kitty litter after like the cats like do their business.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0What?<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0No, but like it like like smell.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me get this straight. When you go to the grocery store, you start having lucid fantasies about the smell of kitty litter?<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Well just because it\u2019s it\u2019s like repulsive. So it\u2019s like, as I\u2019m like pushing the cart, I see the kitty litter, I\u2019m like, ah, that\u2019s why we don\u2019t have a cat. Just because of the smell of the kitty litter and when the cat does its business, it\u2019s not a pleasant smell. But I remember from my childhood-<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0So you are imagining it in your head?<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0Well I was able to imagine the smell of it.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0Ooooh, okay.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s my whole point of the last rambling I just went on, I was able to visualize \u2014 or is it visualize if it\u2019s smell?<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: So I don\u2019t, I don\u2019t know, I don\u2019t know what the word for that would be smell-arize?<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0But yes.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: So because aphantasia, it\u2019s primarily the absence of the visualization, but they also say that there\u2019s like an association with smell as well. And I think they said hearing but it\u2019s kind of like when you can remember sounds or you can remember smells and when somebody tells you imagine you\u2019re at the beach and you hear the waves crashing on the shore, and you smell the salt of the sea, most people are able to do that. And those who have aphantasia are not able to.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Right, and that was one of the exercises that we had actually gone through and we were kind of comparing what you kind of experienced versus what I experienced, and they didn\u2019t really line up or they weren\u2019t the same as far as the visualization process.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Studies have been looking into both aphantasia and synesthesia, and of course, we discussed the synesthesia\u2019s links has been found. But they also found that\u00a0<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/33548575\/\" target=\"_blank\">aphantasia is very strongly linked to imagery as wel<\/a>l. So it\u2019s kind of interesting because both of them actually are both synesthesia and aphantasia. It makes sense with synesthesia, because if you were able to visualize colors, it would make sense that that would go on with the visual imagining part.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I think would kind of be like similar, but also kind of on opposite sides of the equation.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So what the studies basically say is that those that are diagnosed with synesthesia, or aphantasia visual imagery is not actually necessary for these disorders, I guess you\u2019d call it to occur. I\u2019m not sure if it would be considered a disorder, probably.<br><br><strong>Matt:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, I guess I\u2019m not sure. I mean, because I think it would tie in a little bit with your memory, because whenever, like when we\u2019re going through the exercise, and he\u2019s basically saying, oh, think of a beach that you\u2019re walking on, you hear the waves crashing, you bend over, you pick up a seashell, what color\u2019s the seashell that you\u2019re holding \u2014 I\u2019m able to kind of relate back to like, like a memory of whatever beach I had gone to last or the best image I have of a beach. But if you don\u2019t have that component, I\u2019m wondering if that also kind of ties in with your memories as well, because you\u2019re not able to recall them, able to like visualize what you had previously seen.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0In my experience with aphantasia, I can definitely say that it definitely definitely impairs my memory of things, because it\u2019s very hard for me to remember things. So it must be associated.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0I think of the perfect example was the other day when I was at work, and you were texting me because you couldn\u2019t find your iPad. And then I text you back, I was like, oh, have you checked all these places? I was like, oh, try the top drawer on the nightstand because I remember I was able to visualize myself putting it in there closing it to kind of keep it out of the hands of our little ones running around and knocking it over.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: And I actually did read a lot of studies, you just triggered a thought, because I do remember reading\u00a0<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/journals.plos.org\/plosone\/article?id=10.1371\/journal.pone.0029221\" target=\"_blank\">studies\u00a0<\/a>that basically say that those who have executive dysfunction, aphantasia or any other sort of mental imaging incapacity, those are people who tend to lose things more often because you can\u2019t recreate the visual component of that. So if you can\u2019t see the visual steps happening in your head, then it\u2019s hard for you to recreate that in real life, and then follow those steps back to where you are.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: And that\u2019s exactly what I do. If I misplace something I try and sit down and then I try and run my memory back of like my visualization \u2014 what have I seen where was the last time and trying to like catch up? I mean, obviously \u2014<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: That\u2019s crazy to me that you can do that.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: But do you have the moment like when you actually find it, and you didn\u2019t think it was there where you have the \u201cAh, okay, I remember it\u201d.<br><br><strong>Lia:\u00a0<\/strong>No.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So it\u2019s like, there\u2019s like a gap in you\u2019re memory \u2014 or at least for me \u2014 there\u2019s like a gap in my memory. So I think of like the last place it was and I go there and it\u2019s not there, then if I find where it actually is, then suddenly, I have the \u201caha\u201d moment in my mind where I\u2019m like, oh, now I see myself basically putting it down in this place. But I had otherwise forgotten that that was the last place.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: And this is why a lot of times kids who are autistic, they will also forget where things are and it can be very much related to this visual memory or perhaps they may have aphantasia, because if you can\u2019t visually memorize or picture where the item is, it\u2019s very difficult to recall it from memory. And I know for me, like you just asked me like, if I find it, is it like an aha moment? For me, no. When I find it I\u2019m like, how did this get here? Like, I\u2019m like, did somebody put this in here? Like, I mean, come on, let\u2019s be honest. Every time I find something, do I not say, did the girls put this here?<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: That\u2019s true.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0But I guarantee you if there were security cameras, it was me. Like I probably did it. And I just can\u2019t remember that.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0But that\u2019s interesting. And I\u2019m actually I mean, we\u2019re kind of learning about it right now of how it relates in real life kind of on the spot. It\u2019s just kind of funny.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0I mean, in our personal life, I mean, obviously, like, it\u2019s not like a laughing matter, just how it relates to us \u2014<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: It kinda is.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: But just how it relates to this, how it relates to like us losing things.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s what\u2019s funny, like, I mean, it\u2019s not funny when it\u2019s happening. Obviously, I get very overwhelmed and stressed but after the fact, after we do the whole flip the house upside down to find my cell phone that I lose like, what, 10 times a day? Then it\u2019s funny, because I\u2019m like, oh my gosh, I can\u2019t believe I lose my phone so frequently.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0And then we play the \u201cnot it\u201d\u201d of who gets to clean up the mess.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, you\u2019re always it.<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0I know.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0But so aphantasia, the reason it like fascinates me so much is because it\u2019s just very interesting to me personally. Not that you can\u2019t see things, but that everyone else does see things in there mind\u2019s eye.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Well, I mean, it is definitely interesting how it overlaps with the different senses. and it\u2019s not just a visual component. It\u2019s sound, smell \u2014 I\u2019m not sure as far as touch. But yeah, I just find it interesting that it\u2019s basically like a blanket over most of the senses.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s really interesting to me is that these studies are starting to see a correlation between those who have they call it aphantastic \u2014 I don\u2019t know if I\u2019m saying that right, but it\u2019s spelled aphantastic \u2014 so you know, like how somebody is autistic. So someone who experiences aphantasia is aphantastic, so that\u2019s kind of cool. It\u2019s like I can just say, Hey, I\u2019m aphantastic! But they find a strong correlation between aphantastics and Autistics, which makes sense because they\u2019re basically saying that aphantasia can also relate to weaknesses in both imagination and social skills.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Which pops up I think overall with the social element that we\u2019ve experienced with our kids where that link is, I\u2019m not sure if it\u2019s necessarily missing, but they don\u2019t understand the social interactions with peers.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: And then when they say that it\u2019s associated with a weakness in imagination and social skills, I think what they mean by that is sometimes when it comes to socialization, you need to imagine a scenario to be able to know what to do next, if that makes sense.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Well, it makes sense with our daughter, because when we had gotten her the dollhouse, she was only able to play in the way that we had shown her that she was able to play so she\u2019d have a little doll and she would take it up the stairs and go into the bathtub, I think that was the activity?<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Right.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: But then it was that doing that over and over up the stairs into the bathtub, then again, up the stairs over the bathtub, it was never Oh, I\u2019m gonna go into the kitchen, I\u2019m gonna go into the bedroom, it was always the same repetitive task. So I\u2019m not sure if because she had seen that, that was the only way that she was actually able to play.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Aphantasia when they explain what that experience is like, they basically say that when you\u2019re asked to form an image of a person you\u2019re familiar with, for example, the standard typical person can basically see it within their mind. So you can see a visual and have a mental experience of that thing in a similar or near similar way that you would in real life.<br><br><strong>Matt:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019s fair.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0So if I told you to envision your child, what do you see?<br><br><strong>Matt:<\/strong>\u00a0So I see basically my perspective, as I\u2019m at my desk at work, I have kind of like a bulletin board next to my computer. And I have a picture of my oldest daughter, where she\u2019s kind of like leaning up against me with kind of her hair down and like wearing with a backwards baseball cap. So I\u2019ve got that image of my oldest daughter, and then my youngest daughter is her sitting at her highchair with like a big smile, and like her little hand that she\u2019s eating like a quesadilla and has like a bowl of peas. So I mean, I think that those are the images that come to mind, because I\u2019m at my desk like 40 hours a week.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Are you though? I\u2019m just kidding.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: No, no, definitely not. But I think that is probably why because I\u2019m seeing those images of them, probably \u2014 I mean, I have other images or pictures on my desk \u2014 But I think because I see those the most, I think that is the most referenced memory of them in my mind, if it makes sense.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: See it for me, if you tell me to imagine my child, I have a really hard time A) pulling up a picture and B) keeping the picture. And even when I have the picture, it\u2019s usually very blurred or doesn\u2019t have many features. So when I think of my oldest child, I basically see what you would probably see as like a ghost in a way.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Always a good start.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Well because \u2014<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Creepy!<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: It is creepy, don\u2019t tell me to picture my child. It\u2019s basically just like a grayscale. So it\u2019s like I see her wearing like a white gown, which is weird because she doesn\u2019t wear them, it\u2019s seriously like a horror movie.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: No, I just I just had the image like, Okay, if our daughter goes missing, and you have to describe to the police what our daughter looks like.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: We\u2019re done, we\u2019re not going to find her.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Okay, do we see any kids like in Ghost outfits on the street?<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: I\u2019ll be like, the kid from that horror movie, that one, that\u2019s ours. But I picture like her standing with her arms to her side, a gray gown, and then the face to have no facial features whatsoever, like nothing, it\u2019s just her skin tone is like a gray wash. Like it\u2019s not even like white or pink. Or it\u2019s just like gray like it\u2019s a gray, white wash.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: So I so I will say when I see an image or when I see an image in my mind, it\u2019s not a crisp, perfect image of whatever it is. It\u2019s essentially if I\u2019m wearing glasses that are slightly out of focus, I know what the image is, I know what it should look like. But when I see it in my memory, it\u2019s slightly kind of blurry and I don\u2019t have like the the sharp features that I would have. Or another way of thinking it is if I take a picture and I put it under water out of the water will kind of go over top of the picture. That\u2019s kind of how it is my memory. It\u2019s not a super sharp image. But it\u2019s enough to recognize what the ultimate end image is. I guess if that makes sense.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: See, for me, I think what I am doing is I\u2019m finding a representation of it, but it\u2019s not actually it. And it actually rings a bell now because I have read some stuff on Temple Grandin \u2014 she\u2019s like a super famous, she\u2019s an autistic adult who\u2019s an advocate and all this and she\u2019s very famous for autism advocacy work \u2014 and she had written a book that\u2019s about thinking in pictures because that\u2019s how she thinks and her theories that other autistics do as well. That\u2019s debatable, but at least for her, that\u2019s how her mind works. And the way that she thinks is like if you tell her to picture a steeple, she pictures a very specific steeple that she has seen in her life. So it\u2019s not like a generic church steeple. What I think that\u2019s interesting is with my experience of aphantasia, I experiencee kind of like the reverse of that. So like, instead of seeing a very specific steeple that I\u2019ve seen in reality, I get a very vague generic thing that I have never seen.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: So like something you would have Googled, like a steeple, and like another country that we\u2019ve never traveled to?<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: No, like, how I just explained the visual of our first child.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Okay.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: like I envision \u2014<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: You create your own new steeple?<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Right, like I created a picture of a child with no face features, grayscale, and all this stuff. And our child doesn\u2019t actually look like that. But it\u2019s\u00a0<em>a<\/em> child.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Is that with all images that you do that? I\u2019m just I\u2019m just curious.<br><br><strong>Lia:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m actually now realizing that probably, yes.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Like if I\u2019m saying, picture a mountain, like, are you creating the mountain or \u2014<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Yes, like, if you tell me to picture a mountain or a sunset, a beach every single time I picture that I picture the same template. So like, I can\u2019t really alter it to look differently. And it\u2019s very difficult for me to keep that picture in my mental focus. So if you tell me to picture a sunset, I struggle to bring up the sun and when I can finally bring a sun, it starts off all black and nothingness. And then when I finally bring up the sun, as soon as you tell me like, Okay, now picture a mountain view behind the sun, I cannot then pull up the mountain view and keep the sun I have to like choose between the two. because it\u2019s such a mental effort to get any image whatsoever.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: I think I\u2019m getting what you\u2019re saying it\u2019s similar in a way. So if you tell me to picture, the sun, the sky, all that, but then if you say, Okay, think of the mountain now, my viewpoint, my perception, it\u2019s focusing on the mountain, so the sun is still there, but it\u2019s kind of faded into the background. And as you\u2019re throwing more things, whatever was previously given is further kind of buried.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: And I can\u2019t do that.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Okay, so if you if you say, Okay, think of a sun in the sky, and then a mountain in front of it, and then a log cabin. So for me, the log cabin is the closest thing that I can see. But I still know and kind of see the mountain in the sunset still behind it. But obviously, the main focus is on the cabin, because that was the most \u2014 <br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: \u2014 recent thing that was said.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: \u2014 recent information that was provided.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Right, and that\u2019s normal to be able to recall things more recently in more vivid detail. But for me, I\u2019m lucky if I can picture the first step that you give me like if I am told to picture something, I\u2019m lucky if I can just even picture that. If you want me to move on from that step. Like forget about it, I can\u2019t.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: It\u2019s just interesting that you kind of recreate kind of you were seeing like a template for whatever it was, instead of trying to reference something that you had previously seen. I mean, cuz sometimes, like, yeah, you haven\u2019t seen something so you\u2019ve got to use your imagination. But it\u2019s interesting that you would almost choose to I mean, not maybe it\u2019s not, I mean, obviously, like a choice.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: It\u2019s not really a choice, it\u2019s subconscious.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Right, well, I just have like the image of like, almost like in a Word document, you like creating a sunset. And then you have like a little \u2014<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: It\u2019s like very mechanical.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Right.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: It\u2019s not like it\u2019s authentically happening and I\u2019m experiencing it and this is an experience that is happening to me, it\u2019s more like I am happening to it. I am trying to make it happen.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: And then you have like a little paperclip guy come over and say it looks like you\u2019re trying to create a sunset, do you need help?<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: And no, the problem is I don\u2019t have that guy. And that\u2019s the that\u2019s why it never gets done. It\u2019s more like I\u2019m sitting there waiting for his message and I\u2019m like, where\u2018d he go?<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Windows 95 or 90. I don\u2019t even remember what it was.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: I don\u2019t even remember because I\u2019m a Mac girl.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: There we go.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: What\u2019s cool is I ran into\u00a0<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pmc\/articles\/PMC7856239\/\" target=\"_blank\">this study<\/a>, and they basically had a bunch of participants that were shown three images of a living room, a kitchen and a bedroom. And they were each asked to draw each one from memory. And what they found is that their drawings were basically objectively reviewed, they had a ton of people looking at this. And then what they found was that those with aphantasia found it difficult to draw an image from memory because they can\u2019t summon the pictures in their mind\u2019s eye. What\u2019s really funny to me about that is, I grew up in a ton of art classes, because my family is very artistic. So I\u2019ve always been very much into art. And the one thing that I could never understand and now suddenly makes a ton of sense to me is I could never ever draw anything from memory or like from my mind, like I couldn\u2019t create artistically from a vision that\u2019s in my head and put it on paper. I could create fantastically from something in front of me. So if you give me picture I can do a pastel drawing of it, I can paint it and I can replicate it pretty well but I can\u2019t draw something from my head and put it on paper when it comes to images.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: That makes sense to me. But I\u2019m trying to think like for me like obviously I\u2019m not an artist but I will always was interested in like geography so like as far as like recreating maps, I cannot recreate a map for memory like if I\u2019m trying to draw like the coast of like Canada or something. But if I\u2019m looking at like a picture of Canada, I can like draw the geography so but I\u2019m not sure if that\u2019s the same ballpark or is that totally different?<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: I would say that\u2019s totally different because that is you recalling very specific detailed information on geography like that\u2019s, that\u2019s really hard to do. I don\u2019t think a lot of people could do that.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Okay.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Could you out of memory, just draw an outline of like the state that you live in? Or like something that you\u2019re more familiar with.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Okay.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Because it\u2019s all about things that you actually are very familiar with, or you know but you just can\u2019t pull from your memory to put onto a visualization or anything like that.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Okay, that makes sense. I probably do that, I gotcha. Sidebar.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: So what was interesting is the study is that the participants that did have aphantasia, whenever they could not recall the image, they showed that they actually recall that the image was supposed to be there, but they couldn\u2019t remember, like what it looked like. So for example, if they were remembering that there was supposed to be a bed, then what they would do is they would just write down the word bed, or if they knew that, oh, this is supposed to be a chair, they would just write down the word chair, because they couldn\u2019t recall the image. But they could recall that there was supposed to be that there.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: They are aware enough in their memory, that they\u2019re able to recall that it\u2019s there, but might not know exactly what it looks like. I mean, I think that\u2019s fair. I mean, that\u2019s probably better than I could do what I mean I\u2019m not an artistic person whatsoever, so I mean, I feel like that\u2019s half the battle.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: The study\u2019s basically indicating that those with aphantasia can use strategies like verbal representation, instead of visual memory to be able to recall information, that means you can probably help accommodate that need. For instance, if you do discover your child may have aphantasia or struggle with aphantasia, that would be a great accommodation to put in like an IEP or something and say, Hey, instead of having them have to visualize something, why not have them have to recall the word for it or something like that, because it\u2019s written verbal instead of image.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: And I think, once you\u2019re aware of what it is and how to kind of work around to get the same result. I think that is something that\u2019s very doable.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Ultimately, what the studies indicate is that those who\u2019d have aphantasia have a normal spatial imagery ability, because they were able to remember where things were located in the, in their mind from, like the painting that they\u2019re trying to do basically, they just weren\u2019t able to represent things very specifically in terms of imagery related memory tasks, which is why I can\u2019t visualize where my keys are.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: That\u2019s where we get the little like thing that beeps where you can find it.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: One of these days, we\u2019ll have to get one. I just thought it\u2019d be really interesting to talk about aphantasia because I feel like it\u2019s one of those things that if you are like me, or your child is like me, you might grow up your whole life and have no idea that you even have it because who talks about how they visualize things. I didn\u2019t realize that I had an inability to visualize things until I started trying to do some meditation and tried to do some like self care. I didn\u2019t even know that was a thing because it doesn\u2019t come up in conversation.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Well the same thing is too is, you still have images when you\u2019re dreaming.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Yes. So lucid dream very vividly.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: So someone who\u2019s able to lucid dream, you wouldn\u2019t necessarily know Oh, I can lucid dream, but I have a hard time visualizing when I\u2019m awake.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Yeah.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: You wouldn\u2019t necessarily think that I mean that.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Well, and I grew up my entire life thinking that that\u2019s how everyone else visualized.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Right because you have no reference point because you can\u2019t \u2014<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Yeah<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: \u2014 visualize what someone else is visualizing. So I mean, it\u2019s your own experience.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: That\u2019s like the \u201cInception\u201d of visualization.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Right, so that\u2019s basically like, you don\u2019t know what you don\u2019t know.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Right, exactly. So like growing up my entire life up until \u2014 what this year? I basically thought everyone else saw things the way I did. I thought that when people said that they were visualizing something I thought that they were just pretending in a way. I mean, I don\u2019t know how to explain it. I just thought that people were going through the routine of yes, I\u2019m picturing a beach. Yes, I hear the waves crashing. Yes. I just thought that people just did it. I don\u2019t even know why.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: I don\u2019t mean to laugh, but I\u2019m just thinking of us sitting you know, where they have like those like psychics that are trying to hypnotize you?<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: The couch where they\u2019re\u2026yeah.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Where they\u2019re like, Oh, you\u2019re becoming very sleepy. And then they like walk you through?<br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Yeah, like meditation? Yeah.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Right I just have that vision of like, you just like sitting there, like, twiddling your thumbs.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: That\u2019s exactly what I \u2014 that\u2019s what I go through. I literally, I always feel like either I feel dumb because I must be doing something wrong because this isn\u2019t working for me. Or I was like, maybe this person doesn\u2019t know what they\u2019re talking about and this is bunk. But then there\u2019s so many studies supporting that type of therapy and stuff that I was like, something\u2019s wrong.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Yeah, so if I was just thinking of you to sitting down there just like everyone else is like doing their visualization, your eyes open just kind of hanging out.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: And that\u2019s basically aphantasia.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: But now you know though.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Yeah, now I know.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: That\u2019s basically half the battle.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Now I know but I do not see. That is basically aphantasia in a nutshell, we just thought it\u2019d be a fun little thing to bring up since it\u2019s new and different. I hope you guys enjoyed that bit of information.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: And we\u2019ll see you next time.<br><br><strong>Lia<\/strong>: Have a good one guys.<br><br><strong>Matt<\/strong>: Bye.<br><br><strong>Outro:<\/strong><br>In this episode, we explored what it\u2019s like to experience aphantasia and how there\u2019s a higher prevalence in autistic individuals than the general population. We discuss how it may be difficult for some to capture both visual images or accompanying sounds. We also know that although those who experience aphantasia may not be able to visualize images, it is still possible to dream vividly in many cases.<br><br>Tune in next time as we examine the differences between autistic meltdowns and tantrums. We answer questions such as, how can I know if my child is having a meltdown or simply having a tantrum? What can I do to help my child during a meltdown? And how can I try to prevent future meltdowns from happening? This is Embracing Autism.<br><br>\u2014<br><strong>References:<\/strong><br><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/33548575\/\" target=\"_blank\">Link between Aphantasia and Imagery in Autism<\/a><br><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/journals.plos.org\/plosone\/article?id=10.1371\/journal.pone.0029221\" target=\"_blank\">Mental imagery and visual working memory<\/a><br><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pmc\/articles\/PMC7856239\/\" target=\"_blank\">Aphantasia Living Room, Bedroom, Kitchen Drawing Study<\/a><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"We explore what it means to have Aphantasia, how it relates to autism, and how it may overlap with the other senses.&nbsp;","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":0,"menu_order":21,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"sync_status":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/episodes.castos.com\/6067cc60525ae0-11655595\/30f2335a-9368-42c7-aa04-986c43cc9297-Embracing-Autism-207.mp3","transcript_file":"","castos_file_data":"","podmotor_file_id":"708523","cover_image":"https:\/\/autismwish.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/AutismWish__Cover-Art.png","cover_image_id":"1071","duration":"00:25:29","filesize":"20.4 mb","filesize_raw":"21411174","date_recorded":"2021-10-22","explicit":"","block":""},"tags":[116,23,22,24,39,28,27,63,25],"series":[30],"class_list":["post-1367","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","hentry","tag-aphantasia","tag-asd","tag-autism","tag-autism-spectrum-disorder","tag-neurodiverse","tag-neurodiversity","tag-parenting","tag-spd","tag-special-needs","series-embracing-autism"],"episode_featured_image":false,"episode_player_image":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/autismwish.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/AutismWish__Cover-Art.png?fit=6251%2C6251&ssl=1","download_link":"https:\/\/autismwish.org\/podcast-download\/1367\/207.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/autismwish.org\/podcast-player\/1367\/207.mp3","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"dark","subscribeUrls":{"amazon":{"key":"amazon","url":"https:\/\/www.audible.com\/pd\/Podcast\/B08JJPDQGX?qid=1626277344&sr=1-1&ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1&pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&pf_rd_r=SXD0A1WCBBTYHSS83ATJ","label":"Amazon","class":"amazon","icon":"amazon.png"},"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/embracing-autism\/id1567815239","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.google.com\/feed\/aHR0cHM6Ly9lbWJyYWNpbmctYXV0aXNtLmNhc3Rvcy5jb20vZmVlZA","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"pandora":{"key":"pandora","url":"https:\/\/www.pandora.com\/podcast\/embracing-autism\/PC:73138","label":"Pandora","class":"pandora","icon":"pandora.png"},"podchaser":{"key":"podchaser","url":"https:\/\/www.podchaser.com\/podcasts\/embracing-autism-1901089","label":"Podchaser","class":"podchaser","icon":"podchaser.png"},"rss":{"key":"rss","url":"https:\/\/autismwish.org\/feed\/podcast","label":"RSS","class":"rss","icon":"rss.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/5LtFSpYK31jTAgRTKa8sCI?si=mT38lgU4TWqrP7AR7-Zn4A&dl_branch=1&nd=1","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"stitcher":{"key":"stitcher","url":"https:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/show\/embracing-autism","label":"Stitcher","class":"stitcher","icon":"stitcher.png"},"tunein":{"key":"tunein","url":"http:\/\/tun.in\/pkmkV","label":"TuneIn","class":"tunein","icon":"tunein.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/autismwish.org\/feed\/podcast\/embracing-autism","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"uy0Hjgf05x\"><a href=\"https:\/\/autismwish.org\/podcast\/207\/\">EP 207 &#8211; Understanding Aphantasia<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/autismwish.org\/podcast\/207\/embed\/#?secret=uy0Hjgf05x\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;EP 207 &#8211; Understanding Aphantasia&#8221; &#8212; AutismWish\" data-secret=\"uy0Hjgf05x\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">\n\/* <![CDATA[ *\/\n\/*! 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